We're currently doing a joint matchup discussion with the Marth players over on the Pikachu Discord, so I had a look into Marth's different options for edgeguarding Pikachu, as the impact of Marth's edgeguarding in the MU is very significant.
Let's look at Marth's options step by step. I'll be putting extra emphasis on Fsmash to begin with, as its worth in edgeguarding Pikachu has been heavily debated and theorised over the course of Melee's development. We'll be beginning with a relatively high, non-optimal Pikachu recovery, and moving on to lower, more optimized sweetspots afterwards.
Understanding Quick Attack
First, let me give you a run-down on how exactly you would edgeguard Quick Attack on reaction.
CASE 1: A (relatively) high Quick Attack recovery, started slightly lower than level with the stage. A sweetspot from here rides very high, allowing it to be more easily hit, but due to Pikachu's greater height he has a wider variety of mixups available.
From this position, after starting Quick Attack, Pikachu will grab the ledge at frame 32, with "frame 1" being the first frame of his QA startup.
Quick Attack moves in bursts of high speed movement that only have 5 frames of travel time. If Pikachu reaches the ledge on any of these movement frames the move will cancel early and he will snap to it. Most of the move is startup and the time inbetween the two travel periods.
Due to it's extremely high speed movement relative to other recoveries, the window where Pikachu is close enough to the stage to hit but not snapped to the ledge is usually only one or two frames long, depending on the move you use to cover it.
Let's use Marth's Forward Smash, performed from where he is standing in the above picture, as an example. In this case of this rather poor high sweetspot, and Marth's long Forward Smash range, there are 3 total frames he can hit Pikachu with his Forward Smash. If Pikachu has snapped to the ledge by Frame 32, this means Marth must have an active Forward Smash hitbox at the ledge on frame 29, 30 or 31 of Quick Attack, giving him a three frame window to connect.
Marth's Fsmash hitbox that covers the ledge effectively hits on frame 12 of his Fsmash, and lasts until frame 13. Subtract the 12 frame startup from when he needs to have it out by at the latest (frame 31 of QA) and this leaves him an 18 frame reaction window (input Fsmash frame 19 of QA at the latest) to reactively Fsmash this normal double Quick Attack sweetspot. Here's what it looks like.
There's one caveat to this, though. This is reacting from the true start of Quick Attack, which is silent. Pikachu does not make a noise until frame 13, which is just before he begins to move.
Let's say you want to edgeguard Pikachu by reacting to that sound, as it is very loud and distinguishable. If the sound was effectively "frame 1" of Quick Attack as far as Marth is concerned, Pikachu will have snapped to the ledge on what is effectively frame 20 instead. To cover it, you must have an active hitbox at the ledge by frame 19 at the latest.
As Marth's Fsmash is relatively slow to be where it needs to be (frame 12/13), Marth would have to start Fsmash 6 frames after the Quick Attack sound cue (frame 7) to hit. This is obviously impossible to do on reaction, so a slow move like Forward Smash is a no-go.
By far the most viable options to edgeguard Quick Attack by the sound are ledgedrop double jump aerials that start frame 3 or 4. Fox, Falco and Sheik are generally good at edgeguarding Pikachu in this way as they have fast, snappy aerials that stay out a long time. Marth's aerials aren't really appropriate to do this on reaction to the sound cue of Quick Attack's first zip, so I think he should focus on reacting to the real start up of Quick Attack.
The easiest way to identify Pikachu starting Quick Attack is the large smoke cloud it creates. This appears at frame 1, as seen below:
Think of it as similar to reacting to the green flash of a missed tech.
There's one more problematic issue of edgeguarding Quick Attack that I haven't mentioned until now. Earlier, I briefly mentioned that the movement portions of Quick Attack will cancel early if they reach a ledge while in progress. This is extremely important because it means that depending on how good or bad Pikachu's sweetspot is, the second zip will reach the ledge at different frames, forcing you to swing earlier (or later) than normal if your move has low active frames.
This is extremely relevant for Marth, so let's look at a more optimal, lower sweetspot and compare it to the first.
CASE 2: An optimized sweetspot recovery that is lower down. It is harder to hit, and snaps to the ledge earlier in the second zip's travel animation.
Left: The first sweetspot recovery we looked at. Right: The lower, more optimized recovery. Marth starts his Forward Smash at the same time as in the previous edgeguard.
As you can see, against the optimized sweetspot Marth's Forward Smash will miss, because the total time before Pikachu grabs the ledge is shorter by two frames. This is because the second zip reaches the ledge sooner, and the animation is cancelled early.
What does this mean? It means you need to aim to hit the fastest possible sweetspot, not slower ones. In the case of this second, more optimized recovery, you have to swing two frames earlier, which cuts into your available reaction time. This means Marth would have to react in 16 frames, rather than 18. It's possible to get even faster sweetspots if Pikachu is close to the ledge horizontally; as early as a ledge snap at frame 28 of Quick Attack.
Basically, there's variance on when Quick Attack will sweetspot the ledge. That means that to edgeguard it, we want moves to be as quick as possible, to widen the available reaction window, as well as moves that have enough active frames to cover various different sweetspot timings. They also need to be capable of hitting good Quick Attack sweetspots. I'll be going through Marth's different options and rating them based off these metrics.
As you can see, against the optimized sweetspot Marth's Forward Smash will miss, because the total time before Pikachu grabs the ledge is shorter by two frames. This is because the second zip reaches the ledge sooner, and the animation is cancelled early.
What does this mean? It means you need to aim to hit the fastest possible sweetspot, not slower ones. In the case of this second, more optimized recovery, you have to swing two frames earlier, which cuts into your available reaction time. This means Marth would have to react in 16 frames, rather than 18. It's possible to get even faster sweetspots if Pikachu is close to the ledge horizontally; as early as a ledge snap at frame 28 of Quick Attack.
Basically, there's variance on when Quick Attack will sweetspot the ledge. That means that to edgeguard it, we want moves to be as quick as possible, to widen the available reaction window, as well as moves that have enough active frames to cover various different sweetspot timings. They also need to be capable of hitting good Quick Attack sweetspots. I'll be going through Marth's different options and rating them based off these metrics.
So now that we have a general idea of how the recovery functions, let's look at Marth's different options for covering Quick Attack sweetspots and figure out which are the best.
FORWARD SMASH
We've mostly covered Fsmash already, but mainly looked at a non-teeter Fsmash against a suboptimal sweetspot attempt. However, if you correct things so that Marth is teetering and Pikachu is doing a low sweetspot, things basically come out the same.
Can hit low sweetspot: YES
Reaction Time Required: 14 frames
Can cover all sweetspot variance with one timing: NO
Punishment if whiffed: Ledgedash Usmash/Grab, Ledgehop Uair
Things to note: Teeter Fsmash has a notable blindspot nearest the ledge which Pikachu can abuse to get around it, but non-teeter Fsmash cannot hit optimal sweetspots. Marth should probably find a more optimal inbetween that can threaten both mixups and good sweetspots rather than teetering every time.
My opinion: The significant endlag, blind spot near the ledge, high reaction requirement and inability to cover all 2nd zip spacing variances make this an overall high risk, underwhelming option. The best thing about it is that it can kill very early.
DOWN SMASH
Can hit low sweetspot: YES
Reaction Time Required: 21 frames
Can cover all sweetspot variance with one timing: NO
Punishment if whiffed: Ledgedash Anything (inc Fsmash), Ledgehop Uair/Nair etc
Things to note: The first active frame cannot hit most sweetspots. Doesn't cover close to ledge well.
My opinion: Overall, Dsmash has similar strengths and flaws to Fsmash. Like Fsmash, it has a blindspot near the ledge that leaves it open to many recovery mixups. It also covers the same number of frames and also cannot hit all sweetspots with the same timing. While it does cover various timings better than Fsmash, it will result in a very weak non-tipper vs the closer recoveries.
The main advantage of Dsmash in comparison to Fsmash is that reacting is much easier, but in trade it kills later and is even more laggy if missed. The much easier reaction window makes it superior to Fsmash if it will kill.
DOWN TILT
Can hit low sweetspot: YES
Reaction Time Required: 20 frames
Can cover all sweetspot variance with one timing: YES
Punishment if whiffed: Ledgehop Uair (popup hit)
Things to note: Very large blindspot near the ledge. Can actually whiff vs even very close double sweetspot recoveries.
My opinion: Dtilt is a solid, relatively safe option. It can cover all spacings/timings of the second zip to ledge with one timing (start Dtilt frame 21 of QA) and it is only punishable by a very quick ledgehop Up Air.
The main flaw of Dtilt is pretty obvious; it's not going to be killing for a long time. At higher percents a tipper hit may force out a non-sweetspot recovery from Pikachu, which you can capitalize on with a different move that will kill. At lower percents though it basically just resets the edgeguard. Of note, it leaves Pikachu in a place he can one zip to the ledge and grab it, which will beat repeated teeter Dtilts due to the blindspot near the ledge.
Said blindspot is even greater than Fsmash or Dsmash, which allows even a traditional double zip sweetspot to avoid it if done very close to the stage.
Overall still a solid option. Compared to Dsmash and Fsmash, it's much more likely to hit. The reaction window is also easy, with some good lenience if you are earlier than intended. It won't kill by itself, but landing it can set up into a potentially easier edgeguard followup.
F-TILT
F-Tilt is just shy of being able to hit good sweetspots, so I'm hereby disqualifying it from the running. Poor Ftilt.
F-Tilt is just shy of being able to hit good sweetspots, so I'm hereby disqualifying it from the running. Poor Ftilt.
JAB
Jab hits just a little lower than Forward Tilt, which should make all the difference! Let's see here...
Oh, Melee.
DAIR (Ledgedrop > DJ > Dair)
Finally, we come on to Dair, Marth's only real option for edgeguarding Pikachu from the ledge (so far as I know). There are some differences between a Dair jumping into the stage, away from the stage, and neutrally. I'll be covering neutral DJ > drift in to land on stage, and DJ away from the stage.
Neutral DJ > Drift On Stage
Can hit low sweetspot: YES
Reaction Time Required: 18 frames
Can cover all sweetspot variance with one timing: NO
Punishment if whiffed: Ledgedash Bthrow, Usmash, Dsmash etc. Ledgehop Uair/Reverse Nair etc
Things to note: Dropzone Dair is not possible as Marth will SD and an instant DJ Dair from dropzone won't hit. Must be ledgedrop DJ Dair.
My opinion: A scary edgeguard overall as it can kill early, but its preciseness lets it down, as it can't cover multiple spacings of sweetspots well. Still quite unsafe despite landing on stage as it takes Marth a long time to get back to the ground. Marth also won't have to option to ASDI down against things like an instant ledgehop Uair to flip him off stage, either.
DJ Away From Stage
Can hit low sweetspot: YES
Reaction Time Required: 18 frames
Can cover all sweetspot variance with one timing: YES
Punishment if whiffed: Reverse Edgeguard Situation (you have to Up B to get back after)
Things to note: If even a frame early, you can get clipped by Quick Attack's hitbox without hitting Dair. Very precise timing.
My opinion: Basically Marth's only option (of the ones I tested) that can both cover all sweetspot timings and directly kill Pikachu. However, while it can cover all timings, it won't tipper vs any done close to the stage, and is extremely risky for Marth as he has to Up B back to stage afterwards. Compared to other edgeguards it can go wrong really easily, and the punishment for missing it is even more severe. High risk, high reward.
Final Conclusion
Overall, edgeguarding QA sweetspots is pretty hard for Marth. He has to both have good reactions and be very precise, risks severe punishment if he misses, and cannot cover all variations of sweetspots with most of his options. He is also vulnerable to a number of non-sweetspot mixups which I haven't covered here, but yeah, they exist.
Personally, I think Dtilt is his best option, partly because it is more consistent and partly because it is much safer on whiff than the others. Once he gets Pikachu to the higher percents, he can hopefully get a tipper Dtilt and force Pikachu to do a non-sweetspot recovery, which he can cover with a tipper Fsmash, Dsmash or Dair.
A few things to point out:
If Marth understands the spacings/distances Pikachu starts Quick Attack very well, it may be possible to slightly alter his timings to match the variances, so that he can always land a Tipper Fsmash or Dsmash, etc. However I think in practice this would be extremely difficult to execute consistently. Additionally, it's possible for Pikachu to change the 2nd zip's sweetspot timing by slightly angling his first upwards movement away or towards the stage, which is unreactable for Marth.
One notable option I didn't cover here is standing with your back right to the ledge and doing a quick wavedash back fastfall to hog the ledge on reaction to QA startup. For Marth, this will require a 15f reaction if he does it perfectly. It's rather tight and can easily get clipped by Quick Attack or just have the ledge taken before you take it if you're even a little late. If you do it any earlier than on a 15f reaction (for example, on a read of just before when Pikachu will start QA), Pikachu can react to the edgehog and make his 2nd zip go on stage to save himself. I still think it's a good option, though. Pikachu generally fears being edgehogged, especially at lower percents, so sometimes just standing with your back to ledge can scare them into going on stage! Applying mental pressure can sometimes be more useful than overly difficult optimizations.
Note that this is just a very specific post covering a small number of scenarios that edgeguarding consists of. Not mentioned are all the mixups Pikachu has that don't just consist of doing a traditional double zip sweetspot (single zip mixups, option selects, wall ride techs, going to platforms and abusing DSDI slideoff or low landing lag/edgecancels, etc), the extra difficulty falling Thunder Jolt adds to edgeguarding him, and so on. I'm sure I've missed stuff on Marth's side, too. But hopefully this post can at least serve as a crash course in understanding Pikachu's most popular recovery method against some of Marth's most common options, and maybe give people some ideas to bounce off.
Thanks for reading.
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